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'I think the church over the next few years is going to hear the word of the Lord through the credit crunch. A former diocesan secretary in Canterbury used to say: "The Church of England as it is now structured cannot afford the Church of England as it is now structured." And my guess is, that is true for almost every historic building with plants and churches and manses and so on.

'The critical question then is, if we have to be a more lightweight church in terms of plants and bureaucracy - not in terms of theology and spiritual vision - then will we find the way to live the mixed economy in the new realities? I'm quite convinced that means a townwide partnership of every church willing to take part; that we dare not compete with one another. We do need to complement one another's strengths. And one of the threads that runs right through that sort of ecumenism is actually fresh expressions.

'So it may be that in God's economy - and having been taken by surprise by what he's done already, I'm just having a guess at how he might take us by surprise in the future - that this becomes critical in enabling the energetic partnership of churches together doing lighter weight church in serious mission and involvement in their communities. Hope '08 gives a hint of that. I think fresh expressions gives a hint of that.

'The real changes, I think, will be renewing of imagination to do church with less of the very costly historic resources. That doesn't mean the mixed economy disappears, because we will still in historic denominations do beautiful liturgy, do dignified worship. But I am convinced that there's got to be some significant change in the use of our available resources.'

The full 14-minute interview with Graham Cray is available as a podcast extra, alongside the December 2008 Fresh Expressions podcast. All Fresh Expressions monthly podcasts, plus other audio material, can be found here.

'The "strength" of the Church is never anything other than the strength of the presence of the Risen Jesus. And one thing this means is that, once we are convinced that God in Jesus Christ is indeed committed to us and present with us, there is a certain freedom to risk everything except those things that hold us to the truth of his presence – Word and sacrament and the journey into holiness. These will survive, whatever happens to this or that style of worship, this or that bit of local Christian culture, because the presence of Jesus in the community will survive.

'Fresh Expressions, I've suggested, has helped us see something of this liberating vision. It's true, from one point of view, that this takes us beyond a concern with denominational identity; and for some this is worrying. Is it really Anglican, or Methodist, or Baptist? What I hope is that, in the next phase of the work of Fresh Expressions, as it continues to enter more fully into the bloodstream of the churches, we start asking instead – of Fresh Expressions, but also of some of our inherited patterns – "Is it really Church?"'

The remainder of this article can be found in the debut issue of mixed economy, which is available free of charge from the Fresh Expressions website. Other articles include Howard Mellor (on evangelism as parable), Steven Croft (on milestones on the journey), Brother Damian SSF (on mission and spirituality) and Ian Adams (on international perspectives and developments).